Tuesday, December 02, 2008

No Arbitration- Right or Wrong?


Ruben Amaro just made his first big decision as newly appointed Phillies GM in not offering either Type A free agents Pat Burrell or Jamie Moyer arbitration. We all suspected Burrell was going bye-bye anyway, but not offering him arbitration is simply retarded in my opinion. Burrell wants multiple years, so it's doubtful he would have accepted, but now when he signs elsewhere the Phils will not get any compensation via draft picks. Worst case scenario, Burrell would have accepted and the Phils would have been on the hook for 1 year and $15-16 million. I'd rather have Burrell back for that price for 1 season then any free agent on the market (with the exception of Manny). Moyer's case is a bit puzzling too, as both the Phils and Grand Pappy have expressed the mutual desire to re-up the slow-pitch 47 year old lefty. If Jamie had accepted arbitration he would have probably gotten anywhere from $8-10 million, and that's a steep price from an organizational standpoint. I still foresee them coming to an agreement for a 1 year deal with a vesting option.
Who should Amaro offered arbitration to?
Both Burrell and Moyer
Just Burrell
Just Moyer
Neither
  
pollcode.com free polls

~Carson

19 comments:

GM-Carson said...

I somewhat understand not offering Moyer arb, but failing to offer Burrell arbi is purely stupid in the short and longterm.

furiousBall said...

I am hoping they didn't offer arbitration because they are close to signing both, but with Ruben's announcement a day or so ago that he is not playing the nice guy to address needs, well it doesn't look good to see these two back in pinstripes

Andrew said...

"The Philadelphia Phillies’ first championship in 28 years sparked hot-market sales that MLB licensing chief Howard Smith now says surpassed the 2000 Subway Series. That means sales generated by the 2008 Series are second only to those fueled by the Boston Red Sox’s 2004 title."

Reading this (unrelated) comment on the Phillies made me fondly remember how everyone was saying the Phils/Rays series would be a ratings bomb and no one would watch it... Ahh yes, hindsight makes those bastards realize that much more passionate fans live outside the NY/Boston borders.

Bill said...

I am so afraid the days of Ed Wade and being cheap are back. There was no reason to not offer arbitration to both players. You said it best, retarded!

http://phightinphils.com

Corey said...

they certainly should have offered moyer arb - don't we all want him for just one year, anyway?

as for burrell, i think this is a huge mistake. worst case scenario, they "overpay" for one year and they are in the same situation next year. i think he walks now and the phils are left without a compensatory draft pick. unless the phils are on the verge of acquiring a big name outfielder, this seems like a bad decision.

i'm surprsed the voting in the poll is not overwhelmingly against this.

Andrew said...

agreed with everyone else. The only reason, I can think of, that neither player was offered arb is that there is contract negotiations in the works that we don't know about. If thats not the case, than on the surface this appears like a completely bad/stingy decision.

dr. steve said...

We will pass the 2004 Red Sox. Christmas is coming up. :)

OK, SO...

Phillies don't offer arbitration = Phillies get nothing if they sign elsewhere.

Phillies do offer arbitration = Phillies get something if they sign elsewhere.

.............. IIIIIIIII DOOOOOOOO NOTTTTTTTTT GETTTTTTTTTT ITTTTTTTTTTTTTT

GM-Carson said...

I think Moyer re-signs, but Burrell is as good as gone. Rube was too afraid Burrell would accept arb leaving the Phils with a significant chunk of change to throw his way next season, but I doubt Burrell would have accepted anyway...Rube is a dumbass!

furiousBall said...

oh someone just sent me this, which i think would make a nice gift for matt stairs for hammering asses, which is his favorite thing

GM-Carson said...

I continue to read and hear how many teams not offering arbitration to big names (Dunn, Burrell, Moyer, Renteria, Abreu, Pettitte) is a sign of the bad economic times. If that's the case, I feel sorry for this country. Ain't no stimulus plan going to save us in that case.

Bob D said...

Burrell may have accepted arb since he would get about $14mil because he was overpaid last year. Now he will likely get a 3yr $30-33 mil deal. As for Moyer I think it is just a mere formality that he resigns, so offering arb to him would be a waste of time. (Hopefully not)

The Phils are also interested in Burnett and Lowe.

Baseball players may just price themselves out of a job, they may crash like Wall Street.

GM-Carson said...

I'd trade a signing of Burnett or Lowe in lieu of letting Moyer go.

GM-Carson said...

Baseball Tonight's Steve Phillips threw out the names Braden Looper, Paul Byrd, and John Garland as possible starters the Phils may land.

GM-Carson said...

From the comments section of BeerLeaguer- "Interesting Olney article today at ESPN that sheds some light, indirectly, on the Burrell/Moyer decision. Here's a snippet, and if you fill in "Burrell" for "Abreu" and "Phillies" for "Yankees," I think you'll get the picture:

A month ago, the thinking within the Yankees' hierarchy was that offering arbitration to Abreu was an easy choice, a slam dunk. At 34 years old, Abreu was a productive player for them in 2008, hitting .296 with 20 homers and 100 RBIs, and an on-base percentage of .371. The thinking, a month ago, was that Abreu would probably command a multi-year deal from some other team -- probably in the range of $10-12 million a year -- after earning $16 million last season, and if he took that deal, the Yankees would get draft-pick compensation.

If Abreu accepted arbitration, the Yankees would have a productive player on a one-year deal for something in the range of $16-18 million, the kind of thing they would have embraced in recent seasons. It's the kind of gamble the Yankees are in a position to make, as the pre-eminent money powerhouse in the sport.

A month ago, the notion of Abreu as a $16 million player didn't seem so outrageous. In the current climate, however, executives with other teams believe Abreu might be fortunate to make $8 million. It appears that no other team will offer Abreu anything close to what he would make in arbitration with the Yankees."

*It looks like it could be a very bad year to be a free agent not named Manny or CC.

Bob D said...

znow things should get busy with signings and rumors. The Phils will not likely go after type A freeagents and lose thier top pick. Here's a partial list from mlb.com:
Players who were extended the offer included CC Sabathia, Mark Teixeira, Manny Ramirez, Francisco Rodriguez, Brian Fuentes, Ben Sheets, A.J. Burnett, Derek Lowe, Oliver Perez, Raul Ibanez, Jason Varitek, Orlando Hudson and Orlando Cabrera.

Included among the players who did not make the arbitration roll call were Trevor Hoffman, Bobby Abreu, Andy Pettitte, John Smoltz, Pedro Martinez, Brad Penny, Kerry Wood, Garret Anderson, Rafael Furcal, Edgar Renteria, Adam Dunn, Randy Johnson, Doug Brocail and Randy Wolf.

The bottom list the Phils are more likely to chose from. Fortunatley, at least to me, is Ibanez was offered arb, meaning he will not go to Philly.

SirAlden said...

This really was puzzling. But the more I think about it, it makes sense.

If it is done to save money with no replacements i.e. olde 1994-1999 Phillies, then it is a disaster. Especially after all those Sell-Outs and all the Merchandise Sold.

Let's look at Moyer first:
$1M signing bonus,
2007:$6M, 2008:$5.5M
(arbitration estimate $8-10M)
He is 48 years old for God's Sakes.
Even if he throws the ball slowly without too much stress on his arm there is a terrible risk.

Is there a team out there begging to give Moyer 10M for 2009? If so God love them, and let Moyer have yet another payday.

My read now is this: if we offered Moyer arbitration, then of course he would accept and lock in 8-10M, because noone else would give uo draft picks and sign a 48 Year Old Pitcher for that rate.

This gives the power of negotiating back to the Phillies who should sign him to a 7M with option, year to year.

Now for Burrell: The reports on Abreu were that he was up for 16M arbitration and baseball men think he will be lucky to get 8M for 2009.

Pat is set in Philly, and had a very high chance of accepting 15+ million from the Phillies because noone in the opem market is going there. Only Manny. Pat the bat has be overpaid for so long as other teammates watched on.

This move is a shout out to the Rollins, and Hamels, of the Team.
Finally it again kicks the chair legs out from under Burrell, if he wants to be a 2 year Bridge to Taylor & Brown at 10M per noone should be crying, much less Pat.

I was shocked. but now I am really behind both moves, because, no draft picks were ever going to arrive for Moyer or Burrell, the market is too soft.

If draft picks never were going to happen then this all makes sense.

GM-Carson said...

Looks like the Braves just got Javier Vasquez from ChiSox. That will help their rotation.

dr. steve said...

I say the Phillies SIGN TOP LEVEL TALENT, LOSE DRAFT PICKS, AND TRADE THEM FOR TRADE PICKS LATER.

You get more trusted picks that way.

GM-Carson said...

Like Corey, I'm a bit surprised by the votes in the poll. 32 for both, 16 for just Burrell, 13 for just Moyer, and 11 of you voted neither. The neither's really shock me.